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Author Topic: [SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle  (Read 5400 times)

Offline Alianger

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« on: April 26, 2016, 07:28:56 pm »
Delek, would it be possible to make samples not lose so much volume when imported to DM?

[Admin message] This thread was created using offtopic messages from the "Requests!" thread.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:48:33 am by Delek »
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Offline Raijin

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 08:23:02 pm »
I'm going to go ahead and guess the PCM volume is lowered because the overall volume in tracker is lower to prevent clipping.

Offline Delek

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 08:51:05 pm »
Delek, would it be possible to make samples not lose so much volume when imported to DM?
Lose volume according to what? Pressing play in Winamp/Audacity and trigger a sample in Defle hoping the same amplitude is very innocent. Both are two different worlds running on different capsules.  :)
You have to know that Defle is simply sending data to the soundchips, without any kind of pre-processing and the emulator simply responds to those inputs accordingly.  8)

If the overall volume of the samples is slow, I'm sorry but I can't give to you another answers than:
* Decrease the volume of everything else.
* Use the AMP slider in the samples editor window (be careful with the clipping, as Raijin said)
* Amplify the sample before importing it to Deflemask.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 08:54:45 pm by Delek »

Offline mihaelkyeah

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 10:36:36 pm »
Yeah. The global volume of the DefleMask interface is lower than in other players, but that doesn't change the amplitude of the instruments/samples themselves when they're logged into a VGM/ROM. It has to do with DefleMask's environment rather than affecting the data logged into the final product.

Offline marcb0t

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 11:06:28 pm »
* Decrease the volume of everything else.
* Use the AMP slider in the samples editor window (be careful with the clipping, as Raijin said)
* Amplify the sample before importing it to Deflemask.
Yup, I do all these things to optimize my samples. I "normalize" the sample and convert it to mono. Then I convert it in the wave editor to 8bit at the desired sample rate. For instance, I want it to be at 32Khz.

When I use this method of "preconditioning" my samples, I don't have problems with clipping. The samples are nice, loud, and clean even at amp setting of 100%.

Then after saving, I plop it into Deflemask, starting all my FM volumes a little under the max.

It pays to show your samples a little luv. ^o^

Side Note: A sample will down sample in proportion to pitch within the same multiple of the Khz rate. For instance, if you want to downsample a 32Khz flute note in C#, then you can use 16KHz, or 8KHz. Raise the pitch slider up one or three notches respectively, and your sample will still be in C#.

Obviously, 22Khz has to be downsampled to 11Khz. Otherwise you will not get the same pitch without re-sampling your sound outside of Deflemask.

Offline Alianger

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2016, 12:11:55 pm »
marcb0t, which editor do you use? I recently got wavosaur on a recommendation, I might have better results with it than audacity.

"but that doesn't change the amplitude of the instruments/samples themselves when they're logged into a VGM/ROM."

Yeah I know, but I don't see why they can't have the same volume they do in any player that plays .wav files while used in DM.

Delek, I do those things. I amplify to where they're as close to clipping as possible before importing and they're still too low, considering that FM instruments tend to sound different/better (particularly bass instruments sound thicker and can gain some nice noise artifacts) the higher the volume is. Yes this can be tweaked as a last touch but isn't particularly convenient, hence the request. A proper answer to why they can't have the same volume in DM would be appreciated, or you can just say that you don't want to spend the time doing it.
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Offline Alianger

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2016, 12:47:57 pm »
Just tried using Wavosaur to convert a sample to 8-bit 22050 Khz and normalizing before importing. Compared to importing the original 44100 Khz sample and pitching it up two steps after setting it to 22Khz in DM, besides being slightly louder this just makes it clip immediately when I increase the volume in DM. The 44k sample doesn't clip even at 100+ amplification.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 12:49:35 pm by Alianger »
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Offline mihaelkyeah

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2016, 12:52:48 pm »
That's because of it being 8bit. Clipping doesn't happen with 16 bit and it doesn't have to do with the sample rate.
I always use 16 kHz or 22.05 kHz, and sometimes even 11.025 kHz or 8 kHz for kick drums or samples in general that don't get too distorted when downsampled.
Resampling outside of Defle is recommended because Defle resamples directly without applying any filters or dithering.

Offline Alianger

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 01:39:20 pm »
Alright, but what's the point of that outside of a game environment?

I don't know about filters, but dithering sounded bad in wavosaur so I chose not to use it.
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Offline mihaelkyeah

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2016, 01:51:29 am »
As far as I'm concerned you have an assortment of filters to choose from:
· Linear
· Spline
· Polynome 2nd, 3rd and 4th degrees
· Band Limited
along with the anti aliasing filters: low, medium and high quality.

It does depend on the combination... And also in the sample rate you want to resample the original sound to. I've found that, particularly, cymbals and high hats get really distorted when downsampling from a multiple of 11.025 (22.05 kHz, 44.1 kHz, the usual standards) to a multiple of 8 (16 kHz).
If you experience a really rough distortion, it might not always be because of the dithering and anti aliasing, it might have to do with "incompatible" sample rates.

Offline marcb0t

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2016, 02:35:55 am »
Alright, but what's the point of that outside of a game environment?

I don't know about filters, but dithering sounded bad in wavosaur so I chose not to use it.

Hi Alianger,

I've actually been using Wavosaur for a long time now. It's quick, simple, and gets the job done for re-sampling.

In terms of dithering, filters, anti-aliasing and such... I never use it!

When I go to the sample rate changing window, I have NO check boxes selected. And I keep the sample at 16-bit actually. So as kyusawamura mentioned, that's probably why I never have problems with clipping.

If I want to get a sample at 16 or 8KHz, then you need to precondition your sample to 32KHz.

If you want it to be 11KHz, then do it at 22KHz.

I always convert to MONO and "normalize" to 0dB before I re sample, though. Remember to use the actual "normalize" command. Because compression or merely increasing amplitude is not the same thing, and not optimal.

You might have to do a DC offset removal with some samples.

That's my 2 bits!  ;)

Offline Alianger

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2016, 01:16:33 pm »

You might have to do a DC offset removal with some samples.


Ok, and why is that? Don't know what this is. Thanks for the other info!
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Offline marcb0t

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2016, 02:06:03 am »

You might have to do a DC offset removal with some samples.


Ok, and why is that? Don't know what this is. Thanks for the other info!
DC Offset Correction is a function used to correct the imbalance of your total amplitude orientation. Imagine all the peaks of you sine wave unusually too far above the middle line, and all the valleys raised in proportion. This would happen when recording from old sound systems, bad sample ripping, or perhaps other various issues. Correcting this will ensure that your sample playback in Deflemask is optimal.

It is not required, but may be desirable to do sometimes. More often than not, you won't have to worry about it. But it's as easy to fix as a mouse click.

Also, with all the balancing FM and PCM volumes in DM as compared to emulator or hardware, I have this to say. You will never find an emulator or tracker that has the perfect "holy grail" balance of hardware accurate or even emulator accurate sound. Even hardware and emulators have lots of variations.

I have found Deflemask personally to have a better overall balance more true to hardware. Moreso than VGMM. Also, DAC will always be lower in volume than FM, even when played back on hardware. The only exception is if you manually lower all the volumes of FM to compensate.

PSG volumes- I've heard it like this; All 4 channels of PSG played at max volume is equal to the max volume of 1 FM channel. This is, from what I understand, the general rule of thumb on hardware. Although, the Model 2 MegaDrive could be the exception (without Tiido's MOD).

As long as Deflemask has that right, then all you have to do is to test out on .vgm or real hardware, and compensate until you have the balance just right. Hardware is always going to sound different than what you hear on the computer.

I use a program called "VGMPlay.exe" .  It allows me to test a .vgm file simply by dragging and dropping it onto the icon. It's a quick way to judge how your song will sound to most chiptune listeners out there, and probably closer to hardware accuracy. PSG will ALWAYS sound louder though. Everything will. But simply compensate in Deflemask and keep testing to perfection.

That's my method, at least, for what it's worth.

(P.S. Try to keep your TL's at 10 or below... unless you are wanting to get some really sharp leads, shredded metal sounds, and noise, then be my guest! :P )

Offline Alianger

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2016, 03:29:34 pm »
Well, I'll try to keep it in mind if I do spot samples that need it. Thanks.

"You will never find an emulator or tracker that has the perfect "holy grail" balance of hardware accurate or even emulator accurate sound. Even hardware and emulators have lots of variations."

Sure, but I don't see why the goal shouldn't be to emulate at least one of the hardware versions, or the "on average" levels between them all. DM is now, what, 15% lower than an exported VGM sounds like in winamp, and lower than that compared to Regen IIRC. It's not a huge problem if I made it sound like that, just something that can be better. Keeping samples from changing pitch from DM to real hardware seems like a bigger concern, if I'm correct about that one?

I asked about this because someone recently wanted to make recordings of my MD covers on real hardware, a modded Model 2 I think it was, and I had to tell them how it's kind of a hassle to get it right.

I also use VGMPlay, it's good stuff. Only thing that's lacking is its Regen compatibility; the music often behaves weirdly in that emulator which is a shame since it has both instrument dumping and lets you turn off individual channels while GensKmod has the former only.

"(P.S. Try to keep your TL's at 10 or below... unless you are wanting to get some really sharp leads, shredded metal sounds, and noise, then be my guest! :P )"

Hey, didn't you use having very high TL's to achieve a saw sound in the lunar light zone track? ;) Besides that, I think it's a matter of preference or what you're trying to achieve. I already mentioned fuzzy noise artifacts, which for example Time Trax uses well for its bass sounds.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 03:31:25 pm by Alianger »
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Offline mihaelkyeah

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[SPLIT] Questions about samples in Defle
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2016, 11:39:39 pm »
He meant the carrier TLs. The ones that control the master volume of the instrument as opposed to the timbre.
And yes. 10 is a good limit.